[Frankincense]

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Free will, n., the doctrine that human beings (and possibly other beings, such angels or higher animals) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces.

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Determinism, n., the doctrine that all actions are determined by the current state and immutable laws of the universe, with no possibility of choice.

Newtonian physics indicates that "once the initial conditions of the universe have been established the rest of the history of the universe follows inevitably. And if someone knew the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe then he could use Newton's laws to reveal the entire course of cosmic events, past and future." (This someone is called 'Laplace's demon.') Therefore human beings' actions are limited and free will does not exist.

However, Newtonian physics is considered a 'simplified' and 'statistical' form of quantum mechanics, rather convenient than accurate. Quantum mechanics itself has a probabilistic nature, for example the uncertainty principle or electron cloud model. Thus it has been said "quantum mechanics provides probabilistic results because the physical universe is itself probabilistic rather than deterministic," (which results in Einstein's famous quote, "God does not play dice.")

And what is you view of free will? Is it real or illusory?

P.S. In my case, I'm a determinist.

[Deffers]

According to the [Only registered users can see links. ] it is better to choose free will whether or not it is actually true due to the fact that it does the least harm. If determinism is true you can no longer say someone is guilty of something as they had no choice in the matter. If someone cannot be found guilty then they cannot be held accountable for their actions. In a deterministic world where everyone accepts determinism no one can ethically be held accountable for their actions. Such a world is not a world I want to live in. Therefore whether or not free will exists I accept it to be true because it is the better of two outcomes.

Also I believe in free will because of the "yeah but..." response. I feel I have free will therefore I believe it is true.

Edit: For those who don't want to read all of that on the Pragmatic theory of truth it basically breaks down to this:

Any person will believe the most reasonable explanation for any phenomenon (that which has the strongest evidence). In the event where two explanations are equally likely (which is the case for Determinism vs Free will, both are possible and there is no damning evidence against one or the other) you should choose the explanation that does the least amount of harm/does you the most good.

[Sakinho]

What a coincidence, I wrote something about free will just a few days ago =p I'll try to prove that, if free will is analysed as a concept depending exclusively on determinism/non-determinism, then it would actually turn out to not depend on either.

Let's look at both cases. If physics is non-deterministic, it isn't hard to see that free will would exist (given the assumption I made above is true). However, what if physics were proven to be completely deterministic? Interestingly, the way I see it, it wouldn't matter. Even if the ridiculously incomprehensible complexity inherent to even the most simple macroscopic systems turned out to be completely mathematically describable, the resulting computational power required to calculate the outcome of any problem (what will a given person choose between option A and option B, for example) would surpass by far the capacity available today and very likely even in the far future. In short, even if the Universe were technically completely deterministic, it for all practical means would remain non-deterministic due to the impossibility of making the required calculations to predict the behaviour of any system.

This is very much aggravated if one makes the additional assumption that life is chaotic (in the mathematical sense, i.e. even the smallest changes made to a system will, given enough time, produce a completely original outcome). That would mean that determinism is a matter of all or nothing; even the smallest error in the equations used, or the slightest overlooking of a factor would result in completely wrong predictions.

Condensing the whole post in as few words as possible, I'd say that it doesn't matter if the Universe is deterministic or not. If it is non-deterministic, then free will can exist. If it is deterministic, the immense complexity of the Universe would easily emulate non-determinism, unless you happen to have access to huge amounts of processing power.

[Crimson King]

Deffers, I believe that there is a third option. Instead of finding it necessary to choose an explanation for or decide between free will and determinism, it is possible, to reject either explanation in search of another. In a vicious cycle-like manner, this actually ends up circling back around and pointing to free will as that which is in control in the universe.

[Asahina]

In Naruto Anime...
Sasuke was determined to kill his brother...
and he accomplished it...

Free Will is just something you want with second-guessing...It's like holding a magic wand...
So determination is the one that makes most sense..

[strawhat]

it's determination n_n urgh that's a very long topik sory frank i'm to lazyto read it but i agree with you n_n

[SocialEclipse]

Normally, I'd pick determinism. It's a high belief that no one can be blamed for their actions because they were meant to. I believe that the world is set and what will eventually happen to it will happen whether or not we like it.

But from reading the pragmatic theory of truth, courtesy of Deffers, I actually should pick free will. I can't prove that one doesn't exist, so it makes sense to pick the one that does the least harm.

Sorry fellow determinists! I'm with you in spirit!

[Asahina]

Quote: Originally Posted by SocialEclipse

Normally, I'd pick determinism. It's a high belief that no one can be blamed for their actions because they were meant to. I believe that the world is set and what will eventually happen to it will happen whether or not we like it.

But from reading the pragmatic theory of truth, courtesy of Deffers, I actually should pick free will. I can't prove that one doesn't exist, so it makes sense to pick the one that does the least harm.

Sorry fellow determinists! I'm with you in spirit!

Trying to play the smart guy..eh? No Cookie for YOU!!! lol

Well, that opinion of your makes sense as well....
To tell you the truth, I think it all depends on the situation of your life or choice...

[mroilman]

hm... But how would determinism do you harm, after all, just because you were meant to kill him, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be punished for it! I personally believe in a sort of alternate theory, in which every possible action within the universe at any given time creates an alternate dimension,therefore causing there to be multiple pathways, multiple endings, and a good scientific answer while retaining some human choice in the matter. Your actions affect which universe you go down, and because with every little movement or choice that you cause changes your course, its more like riding down a river with a near endless amount of forks in the stream, causing you to constantly steer your way through them while deciding which way to go as you get closer to the ocean (death) than either determinism or free will. actually, its a bit of both.

Sorry if this confuses you...

[multy]

Quote: Originally Posted by mroilman

hm... But how would determinism do you harm, after all, just because you were meant to kill him, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be punished for it! I personally believe in a sort of alternate theory, in which every possible action within the universe at any given time creates an alternate dimension,therefore causing there to be multiple pathways, multiple endings, and a good scientific answer while retaining some human choice in the matter. Your actions affect which universe you go down, and because with every little movement or choice that you cause changes your course, its more like riding down a river with a near endless amount of forks in the stream, causing you to constantly steer your way through them while deciding which way to go as you get closer to the ocean (death) than either determinism or free will. actually, its a bit of both.

Sorry if this confuses you...

You play too many visual novels...

Well... I kinda agree with you with some additional:

In short... the Blinck Winkel theory in the game Ever 17... the world consists of dimensions in which the higher dimension can influence the lower ones.

Example:
Draw a line... that line is a two dimensional item of "length". Draw more lines to create a block. You create a third dimension of "volume"... and so on...

Suffice to say that there is no entirely free will within this universe. And there is no strict determinism either. A free will born from within a soul. A determinism born from the vessel (body) and environment of that soul.

Too bad you don't have balance in your poll. But if I have to pick... I choose free will... since determinism is derived from other's free will... which crushes or pushes the weaker wills.

[CLouD8521]

Well, I don't want to get too deep or else I'll lose my faith in life..

So summarily, my view is this. Shit happens, but how you deal with it are free will..

Basically, I do believe in life after death and that we are all accountable for our actions in life..

Well I'll just be lazy and let sum else elaborate that >.>

[mbamg]

If the question of whether free will is an illusion or not ties in with ethics, then I would say there's free will.
However, I believe that as long as someone means to do a particular action, they should be held accountable for it, regardless of whether determinism or free will influences it.
-----Added 21/12/2008 at 07 : 30 : 23-----

Quote: Originally Posted by mroilman

hm... But how would determinism do you harm, after all, just because you were meant to kill him, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be punished for it! I personally believe in a sort of alternate theory, in which every possible action within the universe at any given time creates an alternate dimension,therefore causing there to be multiple pathways, multiple endings, and a good scientific answer while retaining some human choice in the matter. Your actions affect which universe you go down, and because with every little movement or choice that you cause changes your course, its more like riding down a river with a near endless amount of forks in the stream, causing you to constantly steer your way through them while deciding which way to go as you get closer to the ocean (death) than either determinism or free will. actually, its a bit of both.

Sorry if this confuses you...

If you were to travel down the endless amount of forks in the stream, would you be traveling alone or with other people?

[Stingy]

ah the dark side of newtons laws of pyhsics, i saw something about this a while ago. where he contemplated that everything has a predetermined path if you will.

he believed that we are all puppets playing out our lives to a set script and that there no free will what so ever

i find this kind of narrow minded and contradictary for a man of scienes to be believe in such a thing.

[mbamg]

I don't really care. As long as I can do something I can believe in, I'm happy.