A little thing to think about

**Asuka** · 09-11-2008, 06:41 PM

Ok, so there's a few things that I learned in my theology classes at school which have caught my interest, and I thought I'd share them with you.

The first is a simple statement:

There are three types of truth:
Metaphysical- A truth that can never be proven (an example of this: "God really does exist". The only time that you will get proof for this statement is when you are no longer in the physical world [after you die.])

Objective- A truth that can be proven and backed up (The [I hesitate to say it, but "lie"] that you tell your parents about why you were back home so late so that you don't get into trouble.)

Subjective- A truth that varies from person to person (Your mom believing your "lie" about why you were home so late to be true, and simply accepting that fact. This kind of truth is dangerous, though, because it can be easily proven false by external evidence. Another example would be a 'Personal Opinion')

The second is more of an Idea than a statement:

People who aren't willing to make a leap of faith and simply 'believe' in the Metaphysical usually do so because they can't prove the Metaphysical Truth to be true. People who only believe in what they can prove are rooted in Epistemology (rough definition: the study of what you know or can prove to be true). However, due to the nature of earthly knowledge, Epistemology is a study that relies totally on trust in our collected "knowledge" being correct. So, it can be said that Epistemology itself is a 'leap of faith'

If anyone wants to discuss this, please post. I'm itching for a discussion.

**KLoWn** · 09-11-2008, 07:02 PM

Moved the thread to the Debate-section, since this seem's a bit too serious for the spam-section.

**Bluefire101** · 09-11-2008, 07:35 PM

Wouldn't saying "god really does exist" more or less just be a thought of the person and not a truth ?

**Neir** · 09-11-2008, 09:04 PM

'God' as we currently think of it is a construct of man. It is a personal belief which varies from person to person. It has no physical basis on reality, and should be treated as such.

**xibo** · 09-12-2008, 01:08 AM

what kind of truth would political "corrected" history match? objective[they of cause also fixed most "evidence"]? metaphysical["god wanted us to punish them"]? subjective[on the other end of the world they tell you something different]?

**Asuka** · 09-12-2008, 11:15 PM

Bluefire: Saying "God really does exist" Would be a subjective truth, or a personal opinion. However, due to the nature of God, we can't really find any evidence that proves or disproves his existance. Thus, God Existing or not existing is something that we will never be able to prove to be true or false (at least while we're still alive.)

Neir: It's true that god may be a construct of man (I won't deny that), but It's also true that we can't really prove the statement of " 'God' as we currently think of it is a construct of man" to be true or false, making such a black and white statement just leaves you open to criticism of those against your point of view (who would probably make the same mistake in their arguement.)

Xibo: Historical 'fact' that has been doctored by politicians falls under both the Subjective and Objective categories. It doesn't fall under Metaphysical, because metaphysical truth is something that cannot be understood to a point where you could prove or disprove it regardless of how much time you spend trying. Doctored Historical Records fall under the Category of Subjective Truth because they only tell the version of the truth of the people who wrote them (Old saying along the lines of "History is written by the winners"). It also falls under the Objective Category because for the later generations, the edited version of an event becomes the real version, and because they cannot prove otherwise, it becomes a fact for them. (For example, people who are in around 4-6th grade+ were taught that Pluto was a planet in our Galaxy. Nowadays, Pluto is considered too small to be considered a planet.)

I hope that answers your questions.

I just discovered colors for my posts. :)

**myth0logy** · 09-13-2008, 12:02 AM

...you went a bit overboard with the colors.

also, metaphysical truths are a load of crap. The Bible was written by the church. the church decided what stories were put into the bible. On top of that, IT CONTRADICTS Objective truth. The world is over 4 billion years old. According to the bible, it is less than 10,000 years old. There's aslo the issue of Dinosaurs. Lastly, evolution is truth. it is only technically a "theory" because we haven't found any other lifeforms to compare to. There is more written evidence of the theory of evolution than there is about the theory of Gravity. And yes, Gravity is a theory because we don't know 100% whether it exists in places where we cant see (for example, 90% of the universe as we currently know it to be).
If the bible is wrong in the creation & evolution of the earth, (among other things) why the hell would it NOT be wrong everywhere else? Logical reasoning SHOULD NEVER be thrown away. we aren't unintelligent animals, no matter how hard one wants to think otherwise.

As far as history goes, there IS the Subjective Truth issue, that is true, but not the objective truth. Objective means looking at the situation wholisticlly, and without bias. Therefore, the government censoring the history taught to students gives them a subjective truth. A subjective truth may seem objective to the person holding the truth, but that alone isn't justification for it to be objective.

**Asuka** · 09-13-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by myth0logy

...you went a bit overboard with the colors.

also, metaphysical truths are a load of crap. The Bible was written by the church. the church decided what stories were put into the bible. On top of that, IT CONTRADICTS Objective truth. The world is over 4 billion years old. According to the bible, it is less than 10,000 years old. There's aslo the issue of Dinosaurs. Lastly, evolution is truth. it is only technically a "theory" because we haven't found any other lifeforms to compare to. There is more written evidence of the theory of evolution than there is about the theory of Gravity. And yes, Gravity is a theory because we don't know 100% whether it exists in places where we cant see (for example, 90% of the universe as we currently know it to be).
If the bible is wrong in the creation & evolution of the earth, (among other things) why the hell would it NOT be wrong everywhere else? Logical reasoning SHOULD NEVER be thrown away. we aren't unintelligent animals, no matter how hard one wants to think otherwise.

As far as history goes, there IS the Subjective Truth issue, that is true, but not the objective truth. Objective means looking at the situation wholisticlly, and without bias. Therefore, the government censoring the history taught to students gives them a subjective truth. A subjective truth may seem objective to the person holding the truth, but that alone isn't justification for it to be objective.

*sigh*...

Concerning the colors and history you're mostly correct, so I won't go into those. However, concerning Metaphysical truth, your arguements against it are horribly wrong. You're trying to use physical proof (which we can't really prove is correct in the first place) to prove that something that cannot be proven or disproven by physical proof is wrong. Furthermore, the bible is not something that exists to say "This is the true history of the world. This is the only way it could've possibly happened," ect... It was written so that the beliefs of a group of people could be preserved for future generations. Also assuming that everything in the bible is wrong because it is wrong on the theories of evolution and the creation of the earth is (no harm meant with this comment) an ignorant thing to do. (Keep in mind that I'm not trying to say "you're wrong, this is the truth," but instead trying to get you to realize that your method of coming to that conclusion was incorrect. If you still wanna believe in your original thought, more power to you.) The theories of evolution and the creation of the universe are called theories because we don't have enough physical evidence to prove them to be fact: using something that isn't proven to prove something else wrong is wrong in and of itself.

Finally, Metaphysical Truths don't all have to do with Religion. Another example of a statement that falls under the category of "Metaphysical Truth" would be:

"I - the person in my room, at my computer [insert action here, though it's most likely pron surfing] am real. I exist. I am not a character in a dream, or some sort of puppet created to play a part in a [comedy/drama/tragedy/horror] [film/play/TV show] for the amusement of some mysterious higher power." (for the selections in brackets, pick one of the selections to complete the statement for yourself)

Ideas such as the one above, which people can THINK that they have proof for but can never really be 100% sure of, fall under the metaphysical category.

**myth0logy** · 09-13-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Asuka

*sigh*...

Concerning the colors and history you're mostly correct, so I won't go into those.

:D

Quote:

However, concerning Metaphysical truth, your arguements against it are horribly wrong. You're trying to use physical proof (which we can't really prove is correct in the first place) to prove that something that cannot be proven or disproven by physical proof is wrong. Furthermore, the bible is not something that exists to say "This is the true history of the world. This is the only way it could've possibly happened," ect... It was written so that the beliefs of a group of people could be preserved for future generations.

The bible is the proof used behind the Christianity, proving the bible is wrong should be analogous with proving the god behind it to be false. If there is tangable proof otherwise, believing in that something SHOULDN'T be considered a metaphysical truth.

Quote:

Also assuming that everything in the bible is wrong because it is wrong on the theories of evolution and the creation of the earth is (no harm meant with this comment) an ignorant thing to do.

I'm giving a brief overview. Those are among the largest points that are wrong in the bible. If you want more of a list, go to [Only registered users can see links. ]
There is a LOT MORE PROOF of why the bible is wrong, also pointing out that there is no god. I'm not just saying because one or two points are wrong, every point is wrong. I'm saying because every point trying to prove that god exists has been proven to either be wrong or impossible to prove or disprove, and let me remind you that as more science and technology progress, MORE points are becoming possible to disprove or prove, and ARE proven wrong, that it is not feasible to believe that God is right and that everything science has proven true isn't truly true. The "it is a theory because it hasn't been proven everywhere, and therefore might be wrong" is NOT TRUE FOR EARTH. it is 100% true for earth, and everything on it. it may not be true for a different form of life which we may not know about in some area of the universe so goddamn far away light reflected from the Milky Way hasn't even made it to there

Quote:

(Keep in mind that I'm not trying to say "you're wrong, this is the truth," but instead trying to get you to realize that your method of coming to that conclusion was incorrect.

I've yet to meet a religious fanatic who doesn't say that. If my logic is flawed, please point it out where, why, and how it is wrong.Please be as brutal as you can

That's what makes debates and such fun, not only for the participants, but for the other people reading.

Quote:

If you still wanna believe in your original thought, more power to you.)

oh, I've not yet begun to fight. Not only will I keep believing, but I will give you proof until you have no choice but to join me!

Quote:

The theories of evolution and the creation of the universe are called theories because we don't have enough physical evidence to prove them to be fact: using something that isn't proven to prove something else wrong is wrong in and of itself.

For the universe, yes, they are theories. For Earth, however, they are facts. we DID evolve, and we are evolving.

Quote:

Finally, Metaphysical Truths don't all have to do with Religion. Another example of a statement that falls under the category of "Metaphysical Truth" would be:

"I - the person in my room, at my computer [insert action here, though it's most likely pron surfing] am real. I exist. I am not a character in a dream, or some sort of puppet created to play a part in a [comedy/drama/tragedy/horror] [film/play/TV show] for the amusement of some mysterious higher power." (for the selections in brackets, pick one of the selections to complete the statement for yourself)

"I think, therefore I am" is the phrase I've heard most with metaphysical truths. You'll just confuse people if you try to make the phrase open ended while at the same time limiting them to a select choice of answers :P

Quote:

Ideas such as the one above, which people can THINK that they have proof for but can never really be 100% sure of, fall under the metaphysical category.

That really depends on your definition of proof, which influences your definition of a truth. I define proof as irrefutable evidence for something. If you prove that my proof is wrong, then what I hold, in fact, isn't proof. Likewise, if I can't prove that my proof is correct, it isn't proof, either.

Since a truth must be proven true to be the truth, the thinking behind metaphysical truth is somewhat contradicting when used to define a belief, which may or may not be true. An example of a metaphysical truth that fits my definations. would be a mathematical law. It is a law because it CANNOT BE DERIVED (meaning, there is no way to directly prove it), but the universe as we know it still abides by that law. We don't exacltly know WHY, but it DOES. For example, the Laws of Thermodynamics.

**Asuka** · 09-13-2008, 08:41 PM

As expected of the people on the debate boards... My arguement is now riddled with holes.

well (without quoting your post, myth0logy, cause I don't wanna stretch the page too much.) here's my response.

Again, like I said originally, the bible's purpose isn't solely (I added a word there.) dedicated towards proving the existance of god. It also serves the purpose of recording the teachings of the creators of the faith so that their messages would not be further diluted (as all oral traditions are. Think back to the old game that you used to play in grade school where you told someone something and they passed it around the class, and how much the message changed in between.). The other purpose the bibles serves is to offer up proof of God's Existance, which is impossible. Unfortunately, you shouldn't look at the bible and simply say "these things are factually incorrect, so god must not exist," because the bible's messages go beyond simply proving the faith.

Also, proving that the bible is wrong only proves that the writers of the bible either wrote down the events incorrectly or over-emphasized/added things to the story in order to prove their point. This DOES NOT prove that God doesn't exist, only that the writers were wrong. (please excuse me for repeating myself.)

Since I'm very tired, and only about 30% of my mind is working right now (22% is being used to download UFO Ultramaiden Valkrye Season 2), the only other thing that I can really say at the moment is that Human Beings have stopped their own evolution by removing themselves from nature. I know that people would have plenty to say to argue with that statement, so I'll go ahead and provide a bit of proof (making this objective truth.).

1) Evolution is a process made to give a species an advantage for living in a certain environment. We adapt the environment to our own needs, so we don't need to evolve for that reason.

2) Evolution is a process that favors the strongest of a species over the weak. Members of a species with Genetic Diseases that were crippling or deadly, or members who were vulnerable to sicknesses would be left to die in favor of healthier members of the species during the choosing of a mate. (survival of the fittest.) Humans have found ways to either cure completely or subdue many of these illnesses (both internal and external), leaving those weaknesses and passed down traits intact in the gene pool.

Based on the two things that I've mentioned (if you're not including highly controversial procedures that meddle in the genetics of embryo's), then humans are an overall failure when it comes to evolution, and are not going to continue to evolve unless some sort of external source (global warming, Worldwide tsunamis, the world freezes over... something to that effect) forces us to do so.

That's all I've got for today, since my brain's going into shutdown mode.

GatoNegro · 09-13-2008, 09:06 PM

tl;dr

just readed the first post, and my class and i saw that class a year ago, but for me it was boring...

**myth0logy** · 09-15-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Asuka

Again, like I said originally, the bible's purpose isn't solely (I added a word there.) dedicated towards proving the existence of god. It also serves the purpose of recording the teachings of the creators of the faith so that their messages would not be further diluted (as all oral traditions are. Think back to the old game that you used to play in grade school where you told someone something and they passed it around the class, and how much the message changed in between.).

First off, what does this have to do with any sort of truth?
Second, I mostly agree; however, I do not believe the bible was written for that. If it was, the Church wouldn't have rewritten the Bible several times in an effort to gain a larger following. Even the King James version, which is an attempt to make the Bible more true to the original writings were, is still very different from the original.

I would compare the Bible to The Iliad or The Odyssey. The bible is just a collection of stories about people, their faith, and God's work with them. Homer's poems are the same, only using the Ancient Greek gods instead of the Christian god. Homer's poems may be slightly more extreme/exaggerated, but it is a much closer analogy.

Quote:

The other purpose the bibles serves is to offer up proof of God's Existance, which is impossible. Unfortunately, you shouldn't look at the bible and simply say "these things are factually incorrect, so god must not exist," because the bible's messages go beyond simply proving the faith.

That isn't entirely correct. The point is to teach a moral lesson, while at the same time reinforcing the reader's faith or convince them of the faith. It is sort of a 2-in-1, with more emphasis of the faith part. There is more emphasis on the faith part because the vast majority of the morality parts (such as slavery, discrimination against women and non-whites, ect) are contrary to what we find moral in this day and age.

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Also, proving that the bible is wrong only proves that the writers of the bible either wrote down the events incorrectly or over-emphasized/added things to the story in order to prove their point. This DOES NOT prove that God doesn't exist, only that the writers were wrong. (please excuse me for repeating myself.)

The writings in the Bible aren't historical archives. They are stories. They shouldn't be looked at in the same way a textbook of American history is.

Also, there is no proof for God, so how can he exist? there is plenty of proof that he doesn't exist, such as the stories of him existing and creating the world being very inaccurate.

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the only other thing that I can really say at the moment is that Human Beings have stopped their own evolution by removing themselves from nature.

Wrong, and not only that, but this is worthy of it's own thread for discussion. It has nothing to do with Truths of any sort. If I listed out my view of this argument against yours, it would be about as long as my previous posts combined.

Secondly, what does this have to do with Truths? why did you bring it up?

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That's all I've got for today, since my brain's going into shutdown mode.

that would explain why you deviated from the original topic?

09-11-2008, 06:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Asuka Gensokyo Scan's Cleaner Group: Aiko Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The land of lost souls Posts: 80 Gender: Reputation Points: 11	A little thing to think about Ok, so there's a few things that I learned in my theology classes at school which have caught my interest, and I thought I'd share them with you. The first is a simple statement: There are three types of truth: Metaphysical- A truth that can never be proven (an example of this: "God really does exist". The only time that you will get proof for this statement is when you are no longer in the physical world [after you die.]) Objective- A truth that can be proven and backed up (The [I hesitate to say it, but "lie"] that you tell your parents about why you were back home so late so that you don't get into trouble.) Subjective- A truth that varies from person to person (Your mom believing your "lie" about why you were home so late to be true, and simply accepting that fact. This kind of truth is dangerous, though, because it can be easily proven false by external evidence. Another example would be a 'Personal Opinion') The second is more of an Idea than a statement: People who aren't willing to make a leap of faith and simply 'believe' in the Metaphysical usually do so because they can't prove the Metaphysical Truth to be true. People who only believe in what they can prove are rooted in Epistemology (rough definition: the study of what you know or can prove to be true). However, due to the nature of earthly knowledge, Epistemology is a study that relies totally on trust in our collected "knowledge" being correct. So, it can be said that Epistemology itself is a 'leap of faith' If anyone wants to discuss this, please post. I'm itching for a discussion. Phil Collins broke another Genesis!!!

09-11-2008, 07:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
KLoWn ~Juggalo Pimplord~ Group: Moderators Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,515 Gender: Reputation Points: 575	Re: A little thing to think about Moved the thread to the Debate-section, since this seem's a bit too serious for the spam-section. Spoiler!

09-11-2008, 07:35 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bluefire101 Techy/Programmer Group: Hidoi Members Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 3,476 Gender: Reputation Points: 574	Re: A little thing to think about Wouldn't saying "god really does exist" more or less just be a thought of the person and not a truth ? Spoiler! This sig is filled with win Btw my new wordpress site for the game translations we're doing is zansho.wordpress.com

09-11-2008, 09:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
Neir Hidoi 成員 Group: Hidoi Members Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 50 Gender: Reputation Points: 10	Re: A little thing to think about 'God' as we currently think of it is a construct of man. It is a personal belief which varies from person to person. It has no physical basis on reality, and should be treated as such.

09-12-2008, 01:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
xibo 風紀委員 Group: Takara Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: my dream world Posts: 3,199 Gender: Reputation Points: 167	Re: A little thing to think about what kind of truth would political "corrected" history match? objective[they of cause also fixed most "evidence"]? metaphysical["god wanted us to punish them"]? subjective[on the other end of the world they tell you something different]? 2009-01 uploads: ☆akasaka ☆haruka naru toki no naka de - hachiyoushou ☆haruka naru toki no naka de - kurenai no tsuki ☆haruka naru toki no naka de - maihito yo ☆telepathy shoujo ran ★all of marimite that gets released by chihiro ★all of zoku natsume yuujinchou that gets released by bss ☆akichan once the last two episodes get subbed

09-12-2008, 11:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Asuka Gensokyo Scan's Cleaner Group: Aiko Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The land of lost souls Posts: 80 Gender: Reputation Points: 11	Re: A little thing to think about Bluefire: Saying "God really does exist" Would be a subjective truth, or a personal opinion. However, due to the nature of God, we can't really find any evidence that proves or disproves his existance. Thus, God Existing or not existing is something that we will never be able to prove to be true or false (at least while we're still alive.) Neir: It's true that god may be a construct of man (I won't deny that), but It's also true that we can't really prove the statement of " 'God' as we currently think of it is a construct of man" to be true or false, making such a black and white statement just leaves you open to criticism of those against your point of view (who would probably make the same mistake in their arguement.) Xibo: Historical 'fact' that has been doctored by politicians falls under both the Subjective and Objective categories. It doesn't fall under Metaphysical, because metaphysical truth is something that cannot be understood to a point where you could prove or disprove it regardless of how much time you spend trying. Doctored Historical Records fall under the Category of Subjective Truth because they only tell the version of the truth of the people who wrote them (Old saying along the lines of "History is written by the winners"). It also falls under the Objective Category because for the later generations, the edited version of an event becomes the real version, and because they cannot prove otherwise, it becomes a fact for them. (For example, people who are in around 4-6th grade+ were taught that Pluto was a planet in our Galaxy. Nowadays, Pluto is considered too small to be considered a planet.) I hope that answers your questions. I just discovered colors for my posts. :) Phil Collins broke another Genesis!!! Last edited by Asuka; 09-12-2008 at 11:22 PM..

09-13-2008, 12:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
myth0logy Leecher extrodinaire! Group: Hidoi Members Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 575 Gender: Reputation Points: 70	Re: A little thing to think about ...you went a bit overboard with the colors. also, metaphysical truths are a load of crap. The Bible was written by the church. the church decided what stories were put into the bible. On top of that, IT CONTRADICTS Objective truth. The world is over 4 billion years old. According to the bible, it is less than 10,000 years old. There's aslo the issue of Dinosaurs. Lastly, evolution is truth. it is only technically a "theory" because we haven't found any other lifeforms to compare to. There is more written evidence of the theory of evolution than there is about the theory of Gravity. And yes, Gravity is a theory because we don't know 100% whether it exists in places where we cant see (for example, 90% of the universe as we currently know it to be). If the bible is wrong in the creation & evolution of the earth, (among other things) why the hell would it NOT be wrong everywhere else? Logical reasoning SHOULD NEVER be thrown away. we aren't unintelligent animals, no matter how hard one wants to think otherwise. As far as history goes, there IS the Subjective Truth issue, that is true, but not the objective truth. Objective means looking at the situation wholisticlly, and without bias. Therefore, the government censoring the history taught to students gives them a subjective truth. A subjective truth may seem objective to the person holding the truth, but that alone isn't justification for it to be objective. Last edited by myth0logy; 09-13-2008 at 12:15 AM..

09-13-2008, 05:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
Asuka Gensokyo Scan's Cleaner Group: Aiko Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The land of lost souls Posts: 80 Gender: Reputation Points: 11	Re: A little thing to think about Quote: Originally Posted by myth0logy ...you went a bit overboard with the colors. also, metaphysical truths are a load of crap. The Bible was written by the church. the church decided what stories were put into the bible. On top of that, IT CONTRADICTS Objective truth. The world is over 4 billion years old. According to the bible, it is less than 10,000 years old. There's aslo the issue of Dinosaurs. Lastly, evolution is truth. it is only technically a "theory" because we haven't found any other lifeforms to compare to. There is more written evidence of the theory of evolution than there is about the theory of Gravity. And yes, Gravity is a theory because we don't know 100% whether it exists in places where we cant see (for example, 90% of the universe as we currently know it to be). If the bible is wrong in the creation & evolution of the earth, (among other things) why the hell would it NOT be wrong everywhere else? Logical reasoning SHOULD NEVER be thrown away. we aren't unintelligent animals, no matter how hard one wants to think otherwise. As far as history goes, there IS the Subjective Truth issue, that is true, but not the objective truth. Objective means looking at the situation wholisticlly, and without bias. Therefore, the government censoring the history taught to students gives them a subjective truth. A subjective truth may seem objective to the person holding the truth, but that alone isn't justification for it to be objective. sigh... Concerning the colors and history you're mostly correct, so I won't go into those. However, concerning Metaphysical truth, your arguements against it are horribly wrong. You're trying to use physical proof (which we can't really prove is correct in the first place) to prove that something that cannot be proven or disproven by physical proof is wrong. Furthermore, the bible is not something that exists to say "This is the true history of the world. This is the only way it could've possibly happened," ect... It was written so that the beliefs of a group of people could be preserved for future generations. Also assuming that everything in the bible is wrong because it is wrong on the theories of evolution and the creation of the earth is (no harm meant with this comment) an ignorant thing to do. (Keep in mind that I'm not trying to say "you're wrong, this is the truth," but instead trying to get you to realize that your method of coming to that conclusion was incorrect. If you still wanna believe in your original thought, more power to you.) The theories of evolution and the creation of the universe are called theories because we don't have enough physical evidence to prove them to be fact: using something that isn't proven to prove something else wrong is wrong in and of itself. Finally, Metaphysical Truths don't all have to do with Religion. Another example of a statement that falls under the category of "Metaphysical Truth" would be: "I - the person in my room, at my computer [insert action here, though it's most likely pron surfing] am real. I exist. I am not a character in a dream, or some sort of puppet created to play a part in a [comedy/drama/tragedy/horror] [film/play/TV show] for the amusement of some mysterious higher power." (for the selections in brackets, pick one of the selections to complete the statement for yourself) Ideas such as the one above, which people can THINK that they have proof for but can never really be 100% sure of, fall under the metaphysical category. Phil Collins broke another Genesis!!!

09-13-2008, 07:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
myth0logy Leecher extrodinaire! Group: Hidoi Members Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 575 Gender: Reputation Points: 70	Re: A little thing to think about Quote: Originally Posted by Asuka sigh... Concerning the colors and history you're mostly correct, so I won't go into those. :D Quote: However, concerning Metaphysical truth, your arguements against it are horribly wrong. You're trying to use physical proof (which we can't really prove is correct in the first place) to prove that something that cannot be proven or disproven by physical proof is wrong. Furthermore, the bible is not something that exists to say "This is the true history of the world. This is the only way it could've possibly happened," ect... It was written so that the beliefs of a group of people could be preserved for future generations. The bible is the proof used behind the Christianity, proving the bible is wrong should be analogous with proving the god behind it to be false. If there is tangable proof otherwise, believing in that something SHOULDN'T be considered a metaphysical truth. Quote: Also assuming that everything in the bible is wrong because it is wrong on the theories of evolution and the creation of the earth is (no harm meant with this comment) an ignorant thing to do. I'm giving a brief overview. Those are among the largest points that are wrong in the bible. If you want more of a list, go to [Only registered users can see links. ] There is a LOT MORE PROOF of why the bible is wrong, also pointing out that there is no god. I'm not just saying because one or two points are wrong, every point is wrong. I'm saying because every point trying to prove that god exists has been proven to either be wrong or impossible to prove or disprove, and let me remind you that as more science and technology progress, MORE points are becoming possible to disprove or prove, and ARE proven wrong, that it is not feasible to believe that God is right and that everything science has proven true isn't truly true. The "it is a theory because it hasn't been proven everywhere, and therefore might be wrong" is NOT TRUE FOR EARTH. it is 100% true for earth, and everything on it. it may not be true for a different form of life which we may not know about in some area of the universe so goddamn far away light reflected from the Milky Way hasn't even made it to there Quote: (Keep in mind that I'm not trying to say "you're wrong, this is the truth,"* but instead trying to get you to realize that your method of coming to that conclusion was incorrect.* I've yet to meet a religious fanatic who doesn't say that. If my logic is flawed, please point it out where, why, and how it is wrong.Please be as brutal as you can That's what makes debates and such fun, not only for the participants, but for the other people reading. Quote: If you still wanna believe in your original thought, more power to you.) oh, I've not yet begun to fight. Not only will I keep believing, but I will give you proof until you have no choice but to join me! Quote: The theories of evolution and the creation of the universe are called theories because we don't have enough physical evidence to prove them to be fact: using something that isn't proven to prove something else wrong is wrong in and of itself. For the universe, yes, they are theories. For Earth, however, they are facts. we DID evolve, and we are evolving. Quote: Finally, Metaphysical Truths don't all have to do with Religion. Another example of a statement that falls under the category of "Metaphysical Truth" would be: "I - the person in my room, at my computer [insert action here, though it's most likely pron surfing] am real. I exist. I am not a character in a dream, or some sort of puppet created to play a part in a [comedy/drama/tragedy/horror] [film/play/TV show] for the amusement of some mysterious higher power." (for the selections in brackets, pick one of the selections to complete the statement for yourself) "I think, therefore I am" is the phrase I've heard most with metaphysical truths. You'll just confuse people if you try to make the phrase open ended while at the same time limiting them to a select choice of answers :P Quote: Ideas such as the one above, which people can THINK that they have proof for but can never really be 100% sure of, fall under the metaphysical category. That really depends on your definition of proof, which influences your definition of a truth. I define proof as irrefutable evidence for something. If you prove that my proof is wrong, then what I hold, in fact, isn't proof. Likewise, if I can't prove that my proof is correct, it isn't proof, either. Since a truth must be proven true to be the truth, the thinking behind metaphysical truth is somewhat contradicting when used to define a belief, which may or may not be true. An example of a metaphysical truth that fits my definations. would be a mathematical law. It is a law because it CANNOT BE DERIVED (meaning, there is no way to directly prove it), but the universe as we know it still abides by that law. We don't exacltly know WHY, but it DOES. For example, the Laws of Thermodynamics.

09-13-2008, 08:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Asuka Gensokyo Scan's Cleaner Group: Aiko Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The land of lost souls Posts: 80 Gender: Reputation Points: 11	Re: A little thing to think about As expected of the people on the debate boards... My arguement is now riddled with holes. well (without quoting your post, myth0logy, cause I don't wanna stretch the page too much.) here's my response. Again, like I said originally, the bible's purpose isn't solely (I added a word there.) dedicated towards proving the existance of god. It also serves the purpose of recording the teachings of the creators of the faith so that their messages would not be further diluted (as all oral traditions are. Think back to the old game that you used to play in grade school where you told someone something and they passed it around the class, and how much the message changed in between.). The other purpose the bibles serves is to offer up proof of God's Existance, which is impossible. Unfortunately, you shouldn't look at the bible and simply say "these things are factually incorrect, so god must not exist," because the bible's messages go beyond simply proving the faith. Also, proving that the bible is wrong only proves that the writers of the bible either wrote down the events incorrectly or over-emphasized/added things to the story in order to prove their point. This DOES NOT prove that God doesn't exist, only that the writers were wrong. (please excuse me for repeating myself.) Since I'm very tired, and only about 30% of my mind is working right now (22% is being used to download UFO Ultramaiden Valkrye Season 2), the only other thing that I can really say at the moment is that Human Beings have stopped their own evolution by removing themselves from nature. I know that people would have plenty to say to argue with that statement, so I'll go ahead and provide a bit of proof (making this objective truth.). 1) Evolution is a process made to give a species an advantage for living in a certain environment. We adapt the environment to our own needs, so we don't need to evolve for that reason. 2) Evolution is a process that favors the strongest of a species over the weak. Members of a species with Genetic Diseases that were crippling or deadly, or members who were vulnerable to sicknesses would be left to die in favor of healthier members of the species during the choosing of a mate. (survival of the fittest.) Humans have found ways to either cure completely or subdue many of these illnesses (both internal and external), leaving those weaknesses and passed down traits intact in the gene pool. Based on the two things that I've mentioned (if you're not including highly controversial procedures that meddle in the genetics of embryo's), then humans are an overall failure when it comes to evolution, and are not going to continue to evolve unless some sort of external source (global warming, Worldwide tsunamis, the world freezes over... something to that effect) forces us to do so. That's all I've got for today, since my brain's going into shutdown mode. Phil Collins broke another Genesis!!!

09-13-2008, 09:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
GatoNegro Moonlight Knight Group: Asami Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rokkenjima Posts: 524 Gender: Reputation Points: 136	Re: A little thing to think about tl;dr just readed the first post, and my class and i saw that class a year ago, but for me it was boring...

09-15-2008, 04:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
myth0logy Leecher extrodinaire! Group: Hidoi Members Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 575 Gender: Reputation Points: 70	Re: A little thing to think about Quote: Originally Posted by Asuka Again, like I said originally, the bible's purpose isn't solely (I added a word there.) dedicated towards proving the existence of god. It also serves the purpose of recording the teachings of the creators of the faith so that their messages would not be further diluted (as all oral traditions are. Think back to the old game that you used to play in grade school where you told someone something and they passed it around the class, and how much the message changed in between.). First off, what does this have to do with any sort of truth? Second, I mostly agree; however, I do not believe the bible was written for that. If it was, the Church wouldn't have rewritten the Bible several times in an effort to gain a larger following. Even the King James version, which is an attempt to make the Bible more true to the original writings were, is still very different from the original. I would compare the Bible to The Iliad or The Odyssey. The bible is just a collection of stories about people, their faith, and God's work with them. Homer's poems are the same, only using the Ancient Greek gods instead of the Christian god. Homer's poems may be slightly more extreme/exaggerated, but it is a much closer analogy. Quote: The other purpose the bibles serves is to offer up proof of God's Existance, which is impossible. Unfortunately, you shouldn't look at the bible and simply say "these things are factually incorrect, so god must not exist," because the bible's messages go beyond simply proving the faith. That isn't entirely correct. The point is to teach a moral lesson, while at the same time reinforcing the reader's faith or convince them of the faith. It is sort of a 2-in-1, with more emphasis of the faith part. There is more emphasis on the faith part because the vast majority of the morality parts (such as slavery, discrimination against women and non-whites, ect) are contrary to what we find moral in this day and age. Quote: Also, proving that the bible is wrong only proves that the writers of the bible either wrote down the events incorrectly or over-emphasized/added things to the story in order to prove their point. This DOES NOT prove that God doesn't exist, only that the writers were wrong. (please excuse me for repeating myself.) The writings in the Bible aren't historical archives. They are stories. They shouldn't be looked at in the same way a textbook of American history is. Also, there is no proof for God, so how can he exist? there is plenty of proof that he doesn't exist, such as the stories of him existing and creating the world being very inaccurate. Quote: the only other thing that I can really say at the moment is that Human Beings have stopped their own evolution by removing themselves from nature. Wrong, and not only that, but this is worthy of it's own thread for discussion. It has nothing to do with Truths of any sort. If I listed out my view of this argument against yours, it would be about as long as my previous posts combined. Secondly, what does this have to do with Truths? why did you bring it up? Quote: That's all I've got for today, since my brain's going into shutdown mode. that would explain why you deviated from the original topic?